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March 29, 2009

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Dan

I never never done anything wrong that I haven't cognitively rationalized away. Even the most severe pain can be cognitively rationalized away. I think talking about abstract reasons for not exploiting animals is imperative. That's not to say we shouldn't also display and talk about torture and pain (we certainly should), but to say we should diminish rationality in our discourse is ridiculous. My latest essay, Rational Ignorance and Rational Irrationality, addresss a related issue.

I think the 'movement' spends way too much time and money on single-issue campaigns without general vegan education as an integral component, but only a few people agree with me on this, so whatever. If we're going to do SICs at all, a call to end all exploitation should be an integral part of them. SICs dampen my hope than any meaningful change will happen - they mostly seem to reinforce moral schizophrenia.

Dan

The exception to cognitive rationalizing away wrongs is when we react quickly or thoughtlessly, but this is rarely the case in deciding what to eat, etc.

John Carbonaro

I always liked this article ( which Mary referenced back in 12/07 :

http://roger.rbgi.net/avoiding_unpleasure_and_evading.html

"animals are enemies" -because seeing them as individuals threatens our capacity to block self-examination and the ensuing guilt for our behavior towards them (for the goal of human ends; food, entertainment,companionship..).

I've been spending some time reading about 'social ecology', particularly Murray Bookchin.

"Social ecology locates the roots of the ecological crisis firmly in relations of domination between people. The domination of nature ( animal use )is seen as a product of domination within society, but this domination only reaches crisis proportions under capitalism".

I guess that this is where 'change society- not single individuals' comes in? But how is this to be achieved if we don't embrace a philosophy that acknowledges the importance of releasing the individual 'into the wild' of his own making, apart from the security/conformity and ultimately,exploitation of the political powers that be? People's minds don't need bigger 'mind cages' in which to settle into more comfort (psychological welfarism?). In order for people to want freedom for animals, perhaps they need to want a greater freedom for themselves. Right now i think that a lot of people are happy to live in mind crates and consume a steady diet of psuedo-freedoms (locovore-serfdom). They have to see how things 'really are' for themselves before they will be open to the need for a change.
Perhaps this ties in with the 'single issue' issue. If we look at how society dominates/oppresses as a general force towards life, isn't 'animal rights' itself just a single issue (of a much larger wrong?) If everyone with a 'cause' just shows up at a protest with one-dimensional signs that read " End oppression in all it's forms" - how will people be guided to enact? Single issue campaigns do help people connect the dots, and hopefully does not fragment the mobilizing effort needed to create a force/momentum strong enough, consistent enough, and focused enough to truly be called a societal force.

Dan

We don't slaughter 10 billion humans annually in the US. When we stop slaughtering animals for food, then I'll worry about human exploiation. (And yes, I know that's what leftists say about AR, but they've got it backwards.)

John Carbonaro

I like to look at the commonalities between and behind human and animal exploitation. Putting one before the other (in terms of forming an action plan) is itself to utilize a splitting, hierarchical view. Human beings are exploited in that they are indocrinated from birth to accept that animals are objects to be used by a 'superior' race of beings. This 'use' indocrination creates consumers/producers who will be used to make corporations & industries all that more powerful. Many people became vegans when , in some situation, they realized that the 'meat' they were eating was once the subject of it's own life. They were able to see the whole(being), because they themselves had stepped outside of the WHOLE (of societal/oneness indocrination). They saw the animal as a seperate being, which coincided with themselves becoming individuated, seperate.We are all familiar with the hunter/flesh-eater rationalization that they are behaving according to Nature - a oneness and higher power that absolves them from individual responsibility(to themselves and others).
We-Are-All-Connected can become a facist state of mind for activists if we are not careful. Our single issue significance can become dwarfed, minimized, marginalized..lost if we distill all oppression or all liberation into a one dimensional resolution/goal. The different aspects of oppression form, not fragments, but a kaliedoscope reflective of the overarching force of subjugation (both human and nonhuman).
Rather than be homogenized by these forces, we must recognize and empower our alliances and similarities while retaining our individualities. Should we really be comparing evils : animals that are murdered VS the babies who are spoonfed their bodies? Both are exploited. We have to change these consumers to not feed on animals or feed the powers that be that benefit from commodifying both.

John Carbonaro

Oh yes Dan, let me add that nothing drives me more crazy than so-called leftists who talk about liberation whilst dining on the flesh of animals.

Bea Elliott

John: "Human beings are exploited in that they are indocrinated from birth to accept that animals are objects to be used by a 'superior' race of beings."

Agreed. We are definately exploited and violated from birth. The very truths we depended on to form ethical choices are hidden from us, condoned by our "specialness".

And if we approach animal use psychology, we're accused of "emotionalism" - whereas, they have "science". So, I'm hesitant to relinquish philosophical ground, as I think it's the immovable masthead. Unfortunately, it's ineffective in a culture unwilling to examine ethics. So that leaves anthropomorphizing... and tugging at heartstrings...

As the essay mentions, GF is opposed to utilizing film material that shows abuse - "those pictures do not question animal use, but animal abuse"...

I came across a "farmer's" blog that wrote about the HBO "Death on a Factory Farm" documentary... The gist of the blog was that "unless one is consuming meat, they (vegans) have no authority to dictate how it should be brought to one's table". IOW vegans must stay out of campaigns that expose cruel farming practices... Because the goal is non-use of animals, vegans have no credibility pointing out cruelty. Perhaps this is true. But, the challenge is how to jump to "rights" without exposing horrific abuses?

In the essay: "But I would be immediately ready to stop driving a car, if car driving was banned, i.e. if all others stopped as well. If they do not stop and only I do, then I would not feel that my sacrifice of not using one would be worth the effort."

How true. I don't know how many people I speak to, defend their continued habits because (pragmatically), "the world won't change" or "whatever one does matters little". It's like the (convenient)script is pre-written for them. It's hard to go from there without confronting their moral code... (that is sanctioned by all).

Finally, "I have had a lot of experience with the struggle against animal industries, and it is clear that they have a very strong interest in selling animal products. They will do anything to create that demand."

Can we believe how highly motivated the animal industry is now that Cargill has voluntarily installed video cameras and 3rd party auditing in it's slaughterhouses?

"Developed and managed by Arrowsight, in collaboration with Dr. Temple Grandin, one of the industry's foremost experts on animal welfare, the program is designed to help plant operators teach and monitor performance in animal handling. “Cargill has adopted some of the most rigorous animal care guidelines in the industry,” said Cargill Beef President John Keating. “This additional investment gives us the objective input we need to effectively train our people and improve our processes.”
http://www.accessnorthga.com/detail.php?n=219111&c=8

Clearly, they intend to keep/win their customers psychologically.

Terry Cumming

Mary - heard this interview with Gary Francione on Radio Netherlands ('The State We're In' radio show), one of the international radio stations which CBC plays on on overnight AM radio.

Followup interview from a previous one about 'the right to own pets', this one is about animal suffering in slaughter process.

A very stirring interview. A Canadian university professor was his debate opponent.

Interview is at bottom of page at http://www.radionetherlands.nl/thestatewerein/

Terry Cumming

P.S. - I should have used the words 'jarring' and 'disturbing' rather than 'stirring', which is definitely the wrong adjective to use.

Terry

Dan

To be honest, Jan Narveson sounded like a psychopath in that discussion.

Bea Elliott

I agree that the interview was disturbing. Actually this "scholar" Jan Narveson did a pathetic job at defending his position. But that usually is the case when your arguing from an irrational viewpoint.

There's also a few more interview with Francione here at NZ Vegan examining welfarism vs abolitionism:
http://nzveganpodcast.blogspot.com/
As well as many other interesting podcasts.

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