« Peaceable Kingdom: The Journey Home Coming to Orlando | Main | On Going Vegan »

October 26, 2009

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Olivia

Gosh, I'm sorry to hear of Foer's ultimate (non)stand on the subject. I didn't realize when reading his excerpt in the NY Times Magazine a few weeks ago that this was his (non)position.

Besides incorrectly using the word "it" to describe sentient beings (and I agree it could well be at the editors' insistence), does he also use the words "that" or "which" instead of "who"? Probably.

Sigh -- just when we could've used a prominent whole-hearted advocate for all farmed animals, no matter where they happen to be bred, brought up and executed.

Laura

His article in The NYT caused quite a stir, so his book may follow suit. We shall see. I have yet to read it.

Interesting that he calls himself vegetarian yet practices, presumably, a vegan life-style. I noticed a similar tactic made my Hillary Rettig, vegan, life coach, and author of The Lifelong Activist. In an interview I heard her state that although she's vegan she will describe herself to be "vegetarian." She will follow up with further description such as "I am a vegetarian who doesn't consume eggs or milk." She does so quite intentionally and I can't recall why, but always pondered that decision of hers. Now I want to see if I can find that interview.

Porphyry

I'm planning to read this book only because it's being promoted by so heavily and I'll need to be informed when it comes up in mainstream discussions. I read Omnivores Dilemma for similar reasons.

Foer was even on Larry King as "the vegetarian," but his book had barely hit the shelves yet, and of all the vegetarians with long term street cred you could call, he would be the near the last on everybody's list (if people even knew that he was vegetarian).

I'll approach this book cautiously, and your review has put it in a better light than I was anticipating. I knew from the onset that he was going to be pro small farmer and humane meat on some level, but even in his promotional article in the New York Times, he had some positive (and negative) memorable quotes on vegetarianism. The punchline from his WWII surviving grandmother was fantastic.

“If nothing matters, there’s nothing to save.”

Foer was stringing me along through the whole article with his emphasis on the importance of culture that his grandmother represented, so I was glad that her reasons for abstaining from pork, even though she was desperately starving, became the final word.

This quote is great:

"Some have tried to resolve this gap by hunting or butchering an animal themselves, as if those experiences might somehow legitimize the endeavor of eating animals. This is very silly. Murdering someone would surely prove that you are capable of killing, but it wouldn't be the most reasonable way to understand why you should or shouldn't do it."

Zing! Right at ya Michael Pollan and assorted foodies. It's a succinct refutation to "You're not a farmer, butcher, hunter, seal clubber, etc. so no one but the practitioner can possibly have a worthwhile opinion on the subject."

My biggest reservation regarding Eating Animals is that I'm not convinced on how well researched Foer is on historical vegetarianism. If he doesn't mention the long legacy of vegetarian history and only brings up PeTA (or Peter Singer), it's disappointing. It's a big mistake to associate vegetarianism or veganism as a reaction to factory faming (though even many vegetarians and vegans do this) since the philosophies and practice of not harming animals by abstaining from eating or using them predates Christianity and was an idea that was circulating in the West before (and after) the Industrial Revolution.

If there's criticism for Polyface I'm definitely getting this book. That farm gets way to much publicity for an operation that hasn't been examined or quantified with impartial inquiry. I can't form a real opinion about Polyface's viability as a (non-vegan) solution to factory faming until an objective third party research team quantifies the claims. Sorry, I just can't take Joel Salatin's and Michael Pollan's word for it, especially with Pollan's interpretation of facts. I dislike how people, especially media outlets (journalists, and documentaries), go along with everything he claims without much objective scrutiny of their own.

It's unfortunate that Foer seems to have been seduced by the romanticized storytelling of small farm animal husbandry and slaughter. Again, a broader vegetarian historical perspective would probably alleviate this tendency. Even a broader historical perspective on farming alone would demonstrate that it's never been a "good ol' days" ideal.

Finally, the contrast in tone between your review of Eating Animals and Erik Markus's is very... interesting ;)

"It’s by far the best book on agribusiness and vegetarianism I’ve ever read."

"At long last, we, and the animals, have a bestselling book that gives both veganism and conscientious omnivorism a fair hearing."

Perhaps he's correct regarding agribusiness and conscientious omnivores, but on vegetarianism and veganism? Somehow I don't think so. Unless he's just being overly positive for the sake of that style of animal rights politics.

To end on a positive note, perhaps the one Erik was getting at, it sounds like Eating Animals may be yet another one of those books that people read that leads them to become vegetarian (of some form) and perhaps eventually (though extended research) vegan.

Crystal

Some vegans call themselves vegetarian. They may do these to avoid confusion or to avoid putting off people who think vegans are somehow not worth their attention.

Of course, vegans are vegetarians. Often a vegan diet is referred to as a "strict vegetarian" diet.

veganimal

I often say "vegetarian" when I mean "vegan". I don't think it's wrong. "Vegan" is more precise, but the word "vegetarian" is more familliar to many people. At least here I live in Norway. So I try adjusting the wording to the audience. But I think it's important, which I always do, to equate "veganism" and "strict vegetarianism".

Angus

The Huffington Post is beginning a series of responses to Foer's book. Here's the first one, by Natalie Portman:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/natalie-portman/jonathan-safran-foers-iea_b_334407.html

By the way, here's the OED definition of vegetarian:
"One who lives wholly or principally upon vegetable foods; a person who on principle abstains from any form of animal food, or at least such as is obtained by the direct destruction of life."
And a vegan is "A person who on principle abstains from all food of animal origin; a strict vegetarian."

There is another definition given by the OED, which I rather like:
"A. n. A supposed inhabitant of Vega. B. adj. Of or pertaining to Vega or its imaginary inhabitants.
1951 P. ANDERSON in Galaxy Sci. Fiction Apr. 19/1 A cosmopolitan throng filled the walkways... There were other races, blue-skinned Vegans, furry Proximans, completely non-humanoid Sirians and Antarians. Ibid. 33/2, I understand you've been in the Vegan System..which nobody else in the Legion knows very much about. 1954 [see WARP n.1 8 b]. 1980 I. WATSON Gardens of Delight xxiv. 159 How much more would we regret the passing of Canopians, Vegans, Aldebarians or whomever, with all the insights they had gained? 1983 N.Y. Times 14 Aug. IV. 7/1 Evidence that the Vegan cloud is rotating would..argue strongly for its being a solar system aborning."

Bea Elliott

Thanks Mary for a fair judgement on this book. I got the same kind of disappointment the more I read and learned that there wasn't a decisive message of "rights". I hope in the end many who read will make the connections on their own.

But for those who don't (or won't) embrace "rights", perhaps the idea that "to grasp factory farming fully is to reject it unconditionally", will necessitate a drastic shift to less consumption? If one adheres to the idea that "factory food animals" aren't an option - Unless they have a lot of disposable income, it will be expensive to maintain that "happy" standard and the same volume. Maybe this reduction will be an opportunity for them to discover how very satisfying plant based meals can be? Or will they slippery-slope it to the billions & billions served fast food joint? Either/or, they wouldn't have gone vegan anyway... without "rights".

Eating Animals sort of reminds me of a variation of Scully's Dominion... full of the horrors, the facts, the difficult issues mixed with a bit of "pity". But overall still leaving the crux obscure.

I'll read the book with the thought that it's just one chapter in Foer's uncompleted journey, and to better understand his POV.

nemo

good to see you back from your hiatus Doc. I was just about to dig into a juicy burger a few days ago and ultimately decided on some smushy bean burger. i would have been better off eating card board-heck, I would of saved $10 bucks to boot.

Its been about 2 months since i've had a piece of meat. i'm not convinced that I am any healthier than before. As for as the ethical/moral aspect, well, that is still debatable. Just watch more of PBS and the Nature Show. You'll get a clear picture of the life cycle.


Alex

His article in the Times did a great service by exposing just how base the underlying motivation for eating animals truly is:

"This is what we feel like eating. Yet taste, the crudest of our senses, has been exempted from the ethical rules that govern our other senses. Why? Why doesn’t a horny person have as strong a claim to raping an animal as a hungry one does to confining, killing and eating it? It’s easy to dismiss that question but hard to respond to it. Try to imagine any end other than taste for which it would be justifiable to do what we do to farmed animals."

It's a bold statement, and I appreciated that.

Bea Elliott

FYI - An unconvinced review in the NewYorker: http://tinyurl.com/yhshrxa

Clearly the author of the post is a Pollan fan. Makes me want to read the book all the more.

Bea Elliott

Sorry to double post but I just read this interview and can't help myself because of this one line, Foer’s statement of personal conviction: “I simply cannot feel whole when so knowingly, so deliberately, forgetting.”
http://www.bookslut.com/features/2009_11_015347.php

Brandon Becker

I second reading this review and then reading the one by Erik Marcus: http://www.vegan.com/blog/2009/10/26/eating-animals/

Marcus offers nothing but praise for the book, saying:
"In fact, had a book half this good existed fifteen years ago, there’s no way I’d have written Vegan or Meat Market: I wouldn’t have felt there was a need." and "At long last, we, and the animals, have a bestselling book that gives both veganism and conscientious omnivorism a fair hearing."

With Marcus's clear disdain for vegan ethics, I wish he'd change the name of his website to something else.

Ivy

Thank you, Mary. Yours is by far the best, most honest, review of his book.

All Means Justifiable

Is Safran Foer a vegan?

Here is his answer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KroDkoLpgk#t=58

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

My Photo

Google Search

  • only search Animal Person

My Other Accounts

Facebook Twitter

Twitter Updates

    follow me on Twitter